Fwd: [bmdc-discuss] Discussion on the Work list
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Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 1:11 PM
To: <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
From: Nevin Siders <nevin_siders@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 12:09 PM
Subject: RE: [bmdc-wg] This is all heartbreaking!
To: holson3@outlook.com <holson3@outlook.com>, bmdc@lists.riseup.net <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Although only an occasional contributor to BMDC, I'd like to second Heidi's sentiment.
Please recall my first contribution to BMDC was called "Love Turning Back Hate." https://freepress.org/article/love-turning-back-hate
Yet in recent weeks the group has taken on a hateful personality bitterer than any right-wing hate group. They exist by spewing hatred agains others; BMDC is now filled with venom from and for its own handful of members.
It's heartbreaking. Should I withdraw the article, since love can no longer turn back hate within BMDC's own ranks?
☹Nevin
De: Heidi Olson
Enviado: viernes, 9 de junio de 2023 09:35 a. m.
Para: bmdc@lists.riseup.net
Asunto: [bmdc-wg] Stop the hate! Stop tearing each other down! Enough is enough!
This is all heartbreaking! Everyone of us is here because we care about people. We don't get paid, it's not for fun, it's toxic and draining and damaging to mental health in general. I care about everyone! Can we realize that there is not a FAIR option on the table right now and that the government is to blame! It's 2023 time for society to change and time for the government who has unlimited money for war to fund the changes that need to be made in order for justice & equality for ALL! Let's stop fighting each other and demand real solutions. Don't you think this is what they want? With us at each other's throats and setting up situations that can never be fair for all they are purposefully setting us up to do exactly what we are doing. While they sit back and laugh and what the show.
Admitting that there are biological differences between the male and female body is not anti trans! Of course trans women are women but that does not change these differences in the body.
If you are saying that a person who believes it's unfair to have biological women and trans women compete against each other in sports due to these differences that this person is anti trans, if that were true than my neighbors and good friends who have a transgender son would be anti trans for not allowing their child to play highschool football with biological males due to the great risk of injury to their transgender son because of these biological differences! The school would have allowed my friend's son who is a transgender boy to play as he wanted to be a football player but in the end there was no denying the great risk to him being injured due to once again these biological differences.
Is any of this fair?
NO it's not, it's not fair for anyone! It's a lose-lose situation with no good solution being offered.
Do I have the right answer to make everything fair?
No I don't, I wish I did!
Some ideas;
Single bathrooms and shower stalls for all
(No labels) a bathroom is a bathroom
Sports having more sections than just men women girl boy
Sports designated by body mass & strength rather than sex & gender
Idk but most importantly everyone deserves to be respected and treated fairly. I wish we can be more respectful to each other. I wish we could realize we are being set up to fight each other because then they (the government) has succeeded in demolishing our work that depends on our cooperation and unity with each other.
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[From a different thread on the Work list: ]
6/11/23 11:55 AM (59 minutes ago) |  | |||
From: tommie w <tommieworrall@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [bmdc-wg] Stop the hate! Stop tearing each other down! Enough is enough!
To: <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Cc: bmdc@lists.riseup.net <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>, <dmkeil@gmail.com>
YOU ARE INTENTIONALLY ANTAGONISTIC! STOP HARRASSING ME! THIS IS ABUSIVE! LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11On Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 10:15 AM DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:Heidi has stated that we can all coexist peacefully in BMDC despite our differences, and that our work "depends on our cooperation and unity with each other." Let's hear these recommendations.We are open about concerns that transphobia and/or misogyny are present, among other forms of bigotry. Any meeting, whose participants were all born with male parts, and that censures a woman, after her apology, can be assumed to be burdened by a presence of misogyny. (I did not accuse BMDC itself of misogyny.) My questions about violence against women for speech, and inappropriate sex-related demands of lesbians, remain unanswered except to accuse me of transphobia. The entire left is male led, passively or actively hostile to women, and in tune with Democratic-Party politics.I repeat that there is room in BMDC to handle all the differences that divide us. Saying that a member's "presence" is a "threat," because the member has mistaken ideas, is an open declaration of war on democratic process. It is not, however, grounds for disciplinary action against the declarer. Further recommendations by Heidi may help us.DavidOn Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 5:57 AM Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com> wrote:Trans women are women.
When we say women, that word always includes trans women. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it. A woman's gender identity is her innermost concept of being female. A trans woman's gender identity doesn't define or caveat her womanhood, it simply describes her journey to womanhood.
Transphobia is offensive and harmful.
Many policies that were created to target trans women and girls, from "bathroom bills'' to anti-trans sports legislation, are super invasive for everyone. Bathroom bills, bills that aim to ban trans people from using the restrooms of their gender, ask women — all women — to prove their femininity. In one example, a cis woman was harassed and told to leave a Walmart bathroom because she was confused for a trans woman. This policy is offensive and embarrassing to anyone, especially women who don't perform femininity in a "traditional" way. Anti-trans sports bills, bills that aim to bar trans women and girls from playing on sports teams that correspond with their gender identity, also ask all women to prove their womanhood. Many bills that have been heard across the country go above and beyond to be invasive and harmful, some even going so far as to force kids to turn in doctor's notes with proof of their genitalia.
At the end of the day, anti-feminist ideology wants to police women's bodies, and that includes trans women's bodies.
Feminism must account for all the unique and specific ways women are marginalized. This includes race, gender, sexuality and more. Racism informs transphobia, which then informs sexism and so on and so forth.
It's important to point out the ways in which transphobic ideas are rooted in racism. If one does not fit the mold of "traditional femininity" (i.e. white, thin, etc.), one is other-ized and their womanhood is questioned. More often than not, the gender of women of color is delegitimized. This goes back centuries. You may remember learning about Sojourner Truth's now-infamous speech entitled, "Ain't I A Woman." Through this, she argues that she is treated less than because she is Black and the way she is treated specifically targets her womanhood.
Today, women of color in sports consistently have to prove their womanhood. Many elite athletes, like Dutee Chand and Caster Semenya, have been forced to provide evidence of their womanhood through invasively investigating their chromosomes and testosterone levels. This fight isn't just against transphobia — it's against racism, sexism and all the intersections.
None of this is up for debate, Your accusations of BMDC being misogynist are slanderous lies. Just because Jane is a woman it does not give her a free pass on her antitrans attacks. Her being censured for her attacks was 100% justified and she was let off with a warning. She has since then, in the past week violated that warning close to a dozen times.
According to the above points, your own rhetoric is misogynist.Your presence here in BMDC is a threat to all of us.
On Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 8:52 PM DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:I hope we can reach an agreement on how BMDC can move forward based on common political concerns for justice and equality. I suggested, "Maybe we can agree voluntarily not to use terms like 'biological women,' and not to label the use of certain ideas or words as 'transphobic' unless there is an explicit such intention."My suggestion fell flat. Lita pointed out that expressions of bigotry, whether intended or not, have a harmful effect. I withdraw my suggestion. I also withdraw the suggestion that BMDC members not use the term "biological women." That term is a way that many people refer to women born with female parts, and they do so as a concession to the demand that everyone abide by a new definition of the word "woman.".Because Lita is right that good intention is no defense, I must suggest that we consider the possibility that this whole conversation in BMDC, since February, has been full of misogyny. I use that term as it has been used to refer to hatred of female humans, since ancient Greece, where it was misogunia. By female humans I mean persons with natal female parts (NFP).The misogyny in BMDC comes from the society, as promoted by the two major parties. The kind we are hearing in BMDC is of the Democratic Party variety. Misogyny is misogyny and hurts females regardless of the intention. (Thank you, Lita.)Let me ask you, Lita, what was transphobic about my asking the following two questions at a May BMDC meeting?- Should BMDC support the first-amendment rights of gender-critical women who have been threatened and assaulted for speaking out?- Should BMDC advocate the right of lesbians to declare their same-sex orientation?These questions were about misogyny. The persistent threats against, and physical assaults on, women who speak out for women's rights is selective and misogynistic. Two well-known targets are Kellie-Jay Keen (UK political figure) and Riley Gaines (US swimming champion). The demand that lesbians be silent about their attraction to other females is misogynistic and homophobic. I have asked the above questions multiple times without reply.Is it transphobic to talk about misogyny and about violence against women to silence women?Our problems in BMDC burst out in February when a female member misgendered another member in strong language. She apologized in writing. After her apology, a motion to censure her was nevertheless introduced at a Sunday meeting. I voted for the motion and it passed, but the motion resolved nothing, because immediately the rest of the meeting was devoted to discussing what else to inflict on the censured member as "accountability". The meeting that judged a woman consisted of seven male-identified males and a transwoman. I stated that I regretted my "yes" vote and said that it had been an all-male meeting. In doing so I implicitly misgendered the transwoman member contrary to the rules. I have said that I regret doing so. I accept the rule against misgendering.Trans members have spoken up and should speak up. Female (NFP) members have spoken up and should speak up. I am speaking up against misogyny in BMDC. Its main expression has been the attack on women's rights to speak up about sex and gender. A UN rapporteur on women's rights has expressed concern about the silencing of women on this issue. BMDC should voice the same concern.When women say that women's sports should be all female, they are within their first-amendment rights.We can take up the rights and wrongs of women's sports, the medical transitioning of children, and other expressions of misogyny, including the abuse of language, biology, and science, on the Discuss list.David KeilOn Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 5:37 PM Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com> wrote:No David. I will NOT "agree not to label the use of certain ideas or words as "transphobic" unless there is an explicit such intention", because, one, I am not labeling anything. I am stating fact, and I expect that when it happens that people are called out for it, No exceptions! Transphobia, transmisic, antitrans, whatever word I choose, I WILL call it out every time, just as I would also call out racism, Islamophobia, xenophobia, misogyny, homophobia, antisemitism or any other form of bigotry. I will not be silenced! I will stand up and fight back! Two, focusing on the intent devalues my experience of the interaction. Denying impact by focusing on intent can be more destructive than the initial interaction. You & Jane caused harm to not only me and trans people, but to Boston May Day Coalition's reputation in the community.
Take responsibility for the impact of your actions. I am sick and tired of this conversation.Boston May Day Coalition lost a lot of partners and speakers for may day because of the transphobic rhetoric put out by you and Jane back in February. Our entire international solidarity series cancelled their scheduled events with us that month, as well as our speaker on Malcolm X for Black History, Several members and friends have withdrawn participation and support as well. People I value and care about.You have a history of transmisic rhetoric that have caused problems in Green Rainbow Party and the Socialist Party as well, and I will NOT tolerate it here in BMDC.I will NOT allow you to ruin everything our comrades have been trying to build together the past few years, IOn Sat, Jun 10, 2023 at 3:45 PM DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:The BMDC Work Group list has temporarily become a forum for debate on the meaning and appropriateness of terms like "trans rights," "transphobia," and "biological sex". We do not all agree on these matters. BMDC has voted to support the rights of trans people, and Tommie W. expresses the view of BMDC in saying that "trans folks will always have the right to exist in public spaces." The voices of trans people should be heard, as members of an oppressed group.
I hope that the Work Group list will return to BMDC business, as discussed and decided by active members of BMDC who agree to carry out its decisions. We are organizing an anti-imperialist picnic on July 4 and are witnessing an escalating NATO war in Ukraine, brutal mistreatment of immigrants, and denial of reproductive rights of women. BMDC plays an important role annually in bringing together forces for a united May Day action.
BMDC does not require the use of terms like "cis" or a uniform definition of transphobia. It does require that all members respect each other, including in their assertion of gender identities.
Maybe we can agree voluntarily not to use terms like "biological women," and not to label the use of certain ideas or words as "transphobic" unless there is an explicit such intention. My understanding is that those in BMDC who have used the terms "biological women" or "biological sex" support BMDC's defense of the rights of trans people against violence and discrimination.
I am refraining here from commenting on matters of sports, or the pediatric use of surgery and hormones, or whether there is such a thing as biological sex, or whether sex is "assigned" at birth or observed by pediatric staff. I do know that some doctors use the terms "natal male parts" and "natal female parts" to describe patients medically. Such natal parts correspond to XY and XX chromosomes respectively.
It is quite important that we listen to women in BMDC who have natal female parts and XX chromosomes, because they have had experience with sexism since birth.
I agree with John that a better place to discuss controversial and undecided issues is a discussion list like BMDC-Discuss. I would like to post the relevant comments of this thread to the BMDC-Discuss list for discussion, and I assume that authors of contributions will not object.
I think that if we discuss our concerns in a calm way, then we can easily agree on language to use that is acceptable to all.
David Keil
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From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 10:05 PM
To: <queenritamonkey@gmail.com>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 6:24 PM
To: <Harrypass@aol.com>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 1:11 PM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Discussion on the Work list
To: <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 8:46 PM
To: <porchpotscott@proton.me>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 1:11 PM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Discussion on the Work list
To: <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 7:59 AM
To: <xulingkelley.bmdcantitrans@blogger.com>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2023 at 1:11 PM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Discussion on the Work list
To: <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>