Fwd: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
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From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Below is a thread from 'BMDC-WG', first contribution at bottom by Jane. Another member described Jane's post of a video interview with a high-school athlete as "promoting a white-supremacist group." In the post immediately below I observed that the word "woman" has two very different meanings, so that we might agree that transwomen are women as well as male persons. This was later called "ridiculous" and I withdrew any suggestion that we agree on it. On the other side, feminists view the idea that men are women as ridiculous.
---In actual practice, the word "woman" does have contradictory meanings, biological and social. Thus I don't consider "transwomen are women" to be a ridiculous statement and in fact the society teaches children the social definitions of "boy" and "girl" so that very feminine boys and very masculine girls have every reason to wonder whether they are girls or boys. Thus I don't consider trans people to be deluded but rather to be following that social definition of sex. The society also confuses gender and sex, so that a big majority of people accept the notion of "gender at birth".
Despite the fact that transwomen may be considered women in a social sense, and transmen may be considered men, the drive to erase the biological definitions is tyrannical and of a cult nature. It is causing the mutilations of children and teens. It is leading to the replacement of female sports champions by mediocre male athletes, hence undermining all female access to competitive sports except as losers. The cult aspect is wrecking entire movements for social change, including the movement for reproductive rights, which is split over whether to call these rights women's rights. BMDC's crisis reflects this.
Among the destructive effects of this cult, the very idea that sex is biological is now deemed "hate speech" by formerly respectable organizations. I checked Microsoft's chatbot, Bing, and it gave five authoritative sources affirming that sex is biological. So we can expect efforts to shut down Bing and these sources as transphobic hate sites. Presumably that would be after BMDC is purged of all "transphobia" or closed down entirely.
The idea that transwomen are women, in a sense, is reasonable. The idea that transwomen are only women, and that anyone who differs with that is a hateful bigot, is a lie with the power of a vast cult behind it. The political force behind that cult is the Democratic Party. That cult is that party's answer to the Republican Party's cults of Trump and unborn embryos.
David
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: DAVID KEIL <dmkeil@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: [bmdc-wg] Protecting women and girls' sports
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: DAVID KEIL <dmkeil@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: [bmdc-wg] Protecting women and girls' sports
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
I would like to modify my previous comments by adding to them a separate angle. I am aware that we have a toxic conflict in which there are members on polarized "sides", and members on each side are saying things that are accurate and other things that are inaccurate. I do appreciate the contributions of Lita and of Jane.
I would like to say that depending on definitions, both statements are true: "Transwomen are women" and "Transwomen are male."
Using the first definition of sex, the second assertion is true. But using the definition of "women" as persons with womanly behavior and identity, the first assertion is true too. For example, "women's attire" refers not to the attire of persons with female reproductive anatomy, but of persons who identify as women. Obviously both definitions apply, even though they are different.
Based on the above, I think that we can ask Jane to cool the anger and Lita to reconsider the need to remove members from BMDC for their ideas.
If there is debate on sex and gender, I hope that we can move it to the BMDC-Discuss list as John has urged and as our vote to create that list seems to mandate.
Acknowledging that there are two legitimate definitions of each of the words, "woman" and "man," would be one way for us to have a successful meeting Sunday.
David
On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 10:03 AM DAVID KEIL <dmkeil@gmail.com> wrote:
A member has accused two other members of using "hate speech" without giving specifics. The group will need specifics to take up such complaints. False or reckless claims about "hate speech" are themselves subject to complaint.The ADL site seems to characterize the term "biological males" as "anti-transgender rhetoric." BMDC would need to take that up for discussion. Is any reference to biological sex now to be deemed "hate speech"? Because sex is a biological thing. Such discussion belongs on the BMDC-Discuss list and I will post some comments now there.What BMDC needs, and could agree on Sunday, is a collective decision re-confirming democratic procedure, in that members are free to voice their political opinions, gender identities, and other expressions protected by the First Amendment, without penalty or harassment. The context is agreement with the declared action goals of BMDC.DavidOn Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 8:46 AM Lita Xú Líng Kelley <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:Take note that Jane is promoting a white nationalist hate group via our list.Even the ADL classifies David & Jane's rhetoric as hate speech
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/alliance-defending-freedom
https://www.adl.org/resources/report/tracking-anti-transgender-rhetoric-online-offline-and-our-legislative-chambersOn Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:24 PM Jane Binkerd <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com> wrote:Hello John Harris,
I did not post it as a "debate". Caring about women and girls is not a debate. I am sure there are not differing viewpoints about supporting women, John. I would advise you to stop your authoritarian ways. I mentioned nothing about trans folks. This is about supporting women and not about trans. people.
To let you know, the trans agenda is not the only thing going these days. This is not about the "trans rights" movement. I am sorry you and some in BMDC do not get it.
Peace, Jane
From: john.r.harris@verizon.net <john.r.harris@verizon.net>
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2023 12:13 PM
To: jmbinkerd@hotmail.com <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com>; bmdc@lists.riseup.net <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Subject: Re: [bmdc-wg] Protecting women and girls' sportsThis debate belongs on the BMDC discuss list bmdcdiscuss@lists.riseup.net . For everyone, please abide by the rules we voted on. BMDC participates in the trans rights movement. That is also what we voted on. Folks can have different points of view.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Jane Binkerd <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com>
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Sent: Fri, Jun 9, 2023 11:53 am
Subject: [bmdc-wg] Protecting women and girls' sports
---Hello Folks,
I know you must care about women and girls' sports. I care. Jane
To unsubscribe: <mailto:bmdc-discuss-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net>
List help: <https://riseup.net/lists>
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From: Heidi Olson <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 1:41 PM
To: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>, dmkeil@gmail.com <dmkeil@gmail.com>
From: Heidi Olson <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 1:41 PM
To: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>, dmkeil@gmail.com <dmkeil@gmail.com>
Personally when I say "trans women are women"I am not saying they are biological or cis at all, I am simply showing respect and kindness to trans women by honoring their wishes calling them what they prefer to be called. Just like pronouns. It's not a debate until someone makes it a debate. We don't all have to agree totally but we should all be respectful that is my opinion. I don't believe it's fair for trans women to compete with cis/biological women. Trans men and trans women should have their own sports designation. Bathrooms should be single & unlabeled for all. Someone recently told me I play both sides to that I say, NO! There are NO sides! There are people with different ideas and beliefs. I have also been told I put myself in the middle and to that I say, when I see concerning messages in a group that I am part of between people I am friends with that I have an opinion on, yes I will speak up! I would rather speak up than remain silent out of fear of saying the wrong thing. Live and let live!
From: bmdc-discuss-request@lists.riseup.net <bmdc-discuss-request@lists.riseup.net> on behalf of DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2023 11:04 AM
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2023 11:04 AM
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
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From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 3:32 PM
To: <queenritamonkey@gmail.com>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 3:32 PM
To: <queenritamonkey@gmail.com>
Motherfuckers still sending shit
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Lita Xú Líng KelleyPhotographer | Photojournalist Lita Xú Líng Kelley Photography Pronouns: She / They | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
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From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 8:46 PM
To: <porchpotscott@proton.me>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 8:46 PM
To: <porchpotscott@proton.me>
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
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From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 1:25 PM
To: tommie w <tommieworrall@gmail.com>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 1:25 PM
To: tommie w <tommieworrall@gmail.com>
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
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From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 8:02 AM
To: <xulingkelley.bmdcantitrans@blogger.com>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 8:02 AM
To: <xulingkelley.bmdcantitrans@blogger.com>
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
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From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 11:41 AM
To: <xulingkelley.transphobia@blogger.com>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 11:41 AM
To: <xulingkelley.transphobia@blogger.com>
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
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From: Heidi Olson <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 1:41 PM
To: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>, dmkeil@gmail.com <dmkeil@gmail.com>
From: Heidi Olson <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 1:41 PM
To: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>, dmkeil@gmail.com <dmkeil@gmail.com>
Personally when I say "trans women are women"I am not saying they are biological or cis at all, I am simply showing respect and kindness to trans women by honoring their wishes calling them what they prefer to be called. Just like pronouns. It's not a debate until someone makes it a debate. We don't all have to agree totally but we should all be respectful that is my opinion. I don't believe it's fair for trans women to compete with cis/biological women. Trans men and trans women should have their own sports designation. Bathrooms should be single & unlabeled for all. Someone recently told me I play both sides to that I say, NO! There are NO sides! There are people with different ideas and beliefs. I have also been told I put myself in the middle and to that I say, when I see concerning messages in a group that I am part of between people I am friends with that I have an opinion on, yes I will speak up! I would rather speak up than remain silent out of fear of saying the wrong thing. Live and let live!
From: bmdc-discuss-request@lists.riseup.net <bmdc-discuss-request@lists.riseup.net> on behalf of DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2023 11:04 AM
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2023 11:04 AM
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
----------
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 3:32 PM
To: <queenritamonkey@gmail.com>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 3:32 PM
To: <queenritamonkey@gmail.com>
Motherfuckers still sending shit
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Lita Xú Líng KelleyPhotographer | Photojournalist Lita Xú Líng Kelley Photography Pronouns: She / They | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
----------
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 8:46 PM
To: <porchpotscott@proton.me>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 16, 2023 at 8:46 PM
To: <porchpotscott@proton.me>
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
----------
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 1:25 PM
To: tommie w <tommieworrall@gmail.com>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 1:25 PM
To: tommie w <tommieworrall@gmail.com>
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 11:04 AM
Subject: [bmdc-discuss] Female sports and the words "woman" and "male"
To: BMDC Discuss <bmdc-discuss@lists.riseup.net>
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From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 8:02 AM
To: <xulingkelley.bmdcantitrans@blogger.com>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 8:02 AM
To: <xulingkelley.bmdcantitrans@blogger.com>