Fwd: [bmdc-wg] Apology for outburst on Sunday, 02/19 - joint request

Subject: RE: [bmdc-wg] Apology for outburst on Sunday, 02/19 - joint request
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From: john.r.harris <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 10:11 PM
To: bmdc@lists.riseup.net <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>


Much has been said in the current debate on Jane's recent actions in the BMDC meeting and the work list. Decisions have been taken and attacks have been made in the debate. We feel that it would be in the best interests of BMDC, for now, to be focusing on our current campaigns and political activities and resolve the question in dispute at our regular meeting. We request that the folks who want to discuss this further will please do so at our next meeting.
 
Ricardo Ortiz and John Harris

-----Original Message-----
From: ricardo ortiz" (via bmdc Mailing List) <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
To: john.r.harris@verizon.net
Cc: bmdc@lists.riseup.net <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>; dmkeil@gmail.com <dmkeil@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 23, 2023 8:23 pm
Subject: Re: [bmdc-wg] Apology for outburst on Sunday, 02/19
 It is interesting that John Harris is trying to blame these comrades about the tensions on the group than the transphobic  behavior of his friends. He sounds like anticomunists blaming communists of the ills of bourgeois society. It should be noted that the intervention of John Harris is not to critizice the actions of transphobic statements mention by Jane and the statements by David Klien.
He does only with the intention of attacking me and those comrades. And particularly with the Turkish comrades and their delicate position. Also he does not even respect the decision of people to participate or not in an event as their choice. The did not even close the door forever,they simply would not do it under the present situation. What John Harris is doing is even showing his true colors as a person that does not respect the criteria of other people. Acts like Yankee imperialism itself,you either agree with me or you are enemies. He does not act like concialiator,he furthers expands the divisions with these attacks.

Ricardo



El El jue, feb. 23, 2023 a la(s) 4:55 p.m., john.r.harris <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> escribió:
After learning about the debate, Dr. Brian Kwoba and comrades from Turkey decided to cancel the events. By these actions they have entered the debate. It has increased tensions in the group. They have made a decision about BMDC and have chosen not to do the forums with us. If that is not intervening in our internal affairs, then what is? 


John

-----Original Message-----
From: ricardo ortiz" (via bmdc Mailing List) <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
To: john.r.harris@verizon.net
Cc: bmdc@lists.riseup.net <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>; dmkeil@gmail.com <dmkeil@gmail.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 23, 2023 5:05 pm
Subject: Re: [bmdc-wg] Apology for outburst on Sunday, 02/19
There was no coercion of anybody. Dr. Kwoba and the comrades from Turkey decided after learning about this debate that they were not going to be part of it. So,it was their own decision on their on right. So don't try to deflect the responsability of bigotry of a person on groups or individuals canceling their participation.

El El jue, feb. 23, 2023 a la(s) 1:51 p.m., john.r.harris <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> escribió:
Ricardo earlier called for the expulsion of Jane from BMDC. Her apology was unacceptable to him. Apparently, Steve Z calls for the same. Because of the discussion on this list, events were canceled. Canceling of the events on Saturday and Sunday should not be used as a hammer to coerce BMDC to expel someone from the organization. BMDC has meetings and makes decisions democratically through voting. No one agrees with the outburst by Jane at our meeting on Sunday nor the email attacks launched against Lita on the work list. At BMDC we make decisions at our meetings, not on the work list.   


John

-----Original Message-----
From: laborvideo" (via bmdc Mailing List) <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
To: Ricardo Ortiz-Perez <elzorroheroico@gmail.com>
Cc: DAVID KEIL <dmkeil@gmail.com>; John Harris <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Sent: Thu, Feb 23, 2023 4:17 pm
Subject: Re: [bmdc-wg] Apology for outburst on Sunday, 02/19
I agree with Ricardo and John,
An organization that calls itself progressive and a united front for May Day should  not allow racist comments to be made at a meeting and not take action to
hold those individuals or members  responsible. Would David Keil react the same way if someone used racist ephitats against a Black or Brown individual
and then continued it in an email thread? I doubt it and this again raises questions about a double standard of treatment and respect.
I and the UFCLP are for united fronts around the defense of the working class issues  and the fight for a mass democratic labor party.
We must as a mattter of principle defend the democratic and human rights of all members and the attack on Lita but all of us. It  is a clear
flagrant violaiton of worker rights and those who carry out these actions have to be held accountable.

Steve Zeltzer



On Feb 23, 2023, at 12:58 PM, ricardo ortiz (via bmdc Mailing List) <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:

  That response from David Keil shows about his own prejudices and intentions to falsely attack people.

1) He was not present the day when the events occurred. It was Jane that interrupted Lita and started to shout a list of profanities against her on Litas turn. And then Jane wrote that awful email. And then he still calls Lita he on this thread.
2) The opinion that she should be excluded from the list is because of her behavior during the meeting and after. That opinion is regarding reactionary language used by whoever uses that language regardless. And everybody has the right to express his or her opinion about a member belonging to a group if that person breaches norms of civilized and comradly behavior. So making the issue of trying to silence a person because in my case,gave a respectful opinion about what to do about it,it is implying sexism. And I condemn that slander by Kyle. He reflects himself on that opinion. If it was a latino member or from whatever group that person belonged to,it would be equally proposed by me to have it excluded from a supposedly progressive group. He proyects himself on this.

Ricardo
 


On Thu, Feb 23, 2023, 12:11 PM DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
I wrote, "what Jane experienced was an admonishing interruption by a male." Of course I could not know what Jane experienced, and it would be more accurate to say, "what Jane reported experiencing was an admonishing interruption by a male." In no way does that change the point I was making, which was that we should expect that women (and members of other oppressed groups) will occasionally share with the rest of us how they experience negative comments directed toward them. 

I don't find that I "attacked" or made "accusations of sexism" against Ricardo. I do find that I noted his apparent suggestion that a female member should be removed from BMDC, for her opinions, and I opposed such suggestions. That's my view as a BMDC member who wishes to preserve the unity of the group and the ability of the group to welcome members of all oppressed groups, including women. 

David Keil

On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 1:36 PM Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com> wrote:
" admonishing interruption by a male" ?  So, now you're also using transphobic language?   Second, nobody admonished Jane in the meeting, nor was she interrupted!

We were going around and each person was sharing their thoughts.  I was the one who was interrupted.  You were not in the meeting and your statements are slanderous!

On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 12:17 PM DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
This is to address what is perhaps becoming a toxically divisive conflict in BMDC. Yes, BMDC exists to organize united May Day events and other united events. To do so, we need to coexist, with all our differences.

I appreciate Jane's apology for uncivil comments on the list and at the meeting. It remains for some others to apologize as well.

When a member comments favorably on an action, like the Feb. 19 DC one, and when another member calls it a "shitshow," then the provocation of name-calling the action weighs upon the group. In this case, what Jane experienced was an admonishing interruption by a male, which is typical male behavior. We should expect that women will occasionally share such experiences with the rest of us. Now we have some males declining to accept Jane's apology and suggesting that she should be removed from BMDC. Hostile male behavior is why women often leave mixed-sex groups.

Jane is accused of expressing transphobia. Everyone has experienced transphobia because, due to the sex stereotypes we all experience and all the demands to conform to them, everyone has worried, as a young person, whether they are actually a girl or a boy. Children are told all the time that they are girls if they like or do one thing and boys if they have different activities or preferences. Trans people are to be respected because they respond to these demands with expressions like saying, "OK, you call me a tomboy -- I'll be a boy," or, "You call me a sissy -- I'll be a girl like your sister." In a group like BMDC there is no reason to focus on other members' sex or gender identification. Jane has apologized, but her voiced experience with male behavior was authentic. 

This comes at a time when we are debating antiwar actions and when the issue has been raised in BMDC of whether to work with a community church that has in its leadership somebody who thinks children should be protected, as children, from certain drastic medical interventions. We can disagree about antiwar actions and about medical remedies for gender dysphoria. We don't need to break our connections over such issues.

I'm a supporter of Jill Stein and the Green Party, and I don't want to be told that Jill spoke at a fascist rally when it's not true at all. Such talk is disruptive and should be unwelcome. We need to express our differences in civil ways. I understand that not everyone wanted to support the rally last Sunday, and that's OK and normal. Differences about medical care, Covid, and gender issues should be welcome too, in my opinion. 

David Keil

On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 7:59 AM Colin j <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
This whole thing is disgusting to see and Jane has embarrassed this whole group and everyone in it. 

The BMDC, is the Boston May Day Committee. Created to set up May Day Events in Boston. 

Now there's an internal discussion about if a rally where people on the "left" are suppose to ally with anarcho-capitalists, neo-nazis, proudboys, oathkeepers, MATTHEW HEIMBACH, etc. turned out good. Knowing y'all endorsed this is sickening, just going to their website to see Ron Paul and the big libertarian flag wan enough for any level headed person to see this wasn't a good idea.

Seriously, as a lurker of this list, this is an absolute embarrassment for all of you. Is there any plans for this years May Day in Boston or has all everyone's attention been on achieving this pseudo Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

For Jane, you need to reflect inwardly. The words written in your emails and the aura you put off makes me sick to my stomach and want to vomit. To attack someone's gender because they say their opinion on something shows what kind of person you are. 

You said to everyone:

Lita comes across to me as a DOMINATE ARROGANT MAN.  I have experienced REAL oppresion from MEN all my life.  Lita is a fraud.  Lita behaves and talks like a MAN. I know, I am the one who has suffered from MALE DOMINANCE most of my life.

You reiterated:

So, the Rage Against the War rally in Washington, D.C. was excellent and exactly what we need.  I will not hear CRAP from ignorant Lita about it.  Lita has his head stuck up his asshole. And, yes, Lita, is definitely a HE.

This is so hateful and wrong. You guys endorsed a fascist rally and Jane is a transphobe. 



On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 1:51 PM ricardo ortiz <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
Dear BDMC members,

  During the last couple of days there has been a controversy about the meeting that took place on Sunday,where Jane Binkerd insulted comrade Lita and the send an email to the list filled with more insults and and calling her a he and stating her views about the issue of abortion rights for women.

Later,she send a so called apology to the group and comrade Lita.
Mike H.has stated that he accepts her apology.

I just want to state that this affair is not so simple to solve it with just with a late apology. This is not a matter about a difference of opinion that Ms. Binkerd did not respect,it is a matter of the insults and views that she has about trans people and pro choice in general.
 Excusing that kind of behavior would be the equivalent as if somebody would say a whole bunch of racists slurs against a member of color and this behavior would be excused with just an apology. That's what the Trent Lotts and John Ashcrofts of this world do when they get caught in their bigotry.

 The behavior of this person is not compatible with any organization in the progressive movement,workers movement and any other organization that advocates human rights and progressive values.

Ricardo Ortiz




El El mié, feb. 22, 2023 a la(s) 7:58 a.m., Jane Binkerd <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com> escribió:
Hello Folks,
I sincerely apologize to the members of BMDC present at the meeting on Sunday, February 19th, for my outburst towards Lita.  Most of all I sincerely apologize to Lita.  It was wrong of me and I regret it.  I will not make excuses for my words and behavior.  I am only a flawed human and I fall short more often than not.

Peace and all Good, Jane Binkerd
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From: Steve Kellerman <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Fri, Feb 24, 2023 at 5:19 PM
To: <john.r.harris@verizon.net>
Cc: bmdc@lists.riseup.net <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>


Yet another "progressive" organization being torn apart by hostility and identity. Who benefits from this?
-Steve Kellerman


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From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 7:45 PM
To: <xulingkelley.bmdcantitrans@blogger.com>