Fwd: [bmdc-wg] Protecting women and girls' sports
Subject: [bmdc-wg] Protecting women and girls' sports
------------------------
------------------------
From: Jane Binkerd <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 11:54 AM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 11:54 AM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Hello Folks,
I know you must care about women and girls' sports. I care. Jane
To unsubscribe: <mailto:bmdc-unsubscribe@lists.riseup.net>
List help: <https://riseup.net/lists>
----------
From: john.r.harris <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:14 PM
To: jmbinkerd@hotmail.com <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com>, bmdc@lists.riseup.net <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: john.r.harris <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:14 PM
To: jmbinkerd@hotmail.com <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com>, bmdc@lists.riseup.net <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
This debate belongs on the BMDC discuss list bmdcdiscuss@lists.riseup.net . For everyone, please abide by the rules we voted on. BMDC participates in the trans rights movement. That is also what we voted on. Folks can have different points of view.
John
John
----------
From: Jane Binkerd <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:24 PM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Cc: john.r.harris@verizon.net <john.r.harris@verizon.net>, DAVID KEIL <dmkeil@gmail.com>
From: Jane Binkerd <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 12:24 PM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Cc: john.r.harris@verizon.net <john.r.harris@verizon.net>, DAVID KEIL <dmkeil@gmail.com>
Hello John Harris,
I did not post it as a "debate". Caring about women and girls is not a debate. I am sure there are not differing viewpoints about supporting women, John. I would advise you to stop your authoritarian ways. I mentioned nothing about trans folks. This is about supporting women and not about trans. people.
To let you know, the trans agenda is not the only thing going these days. This is not about the "trans rights" movement. I am sorry you and some in BMDC do not get it.
Peace, Jane
From: john.r.harris@verizon.net <john.r.harris@verizon.net>
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2023 12:13 PM
To: jmbinkerd@hotmail.com <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com>; bmdc@lists.riseup.net <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Subject: Re: [bmdc-wg] Protecting women and girls' sports
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2023 12:13 PM
To: jmbinkerd@hotmail.com <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com>; bmdc@lists.riseup.net <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Subject: Re: [bmdc-wg] Protecting women and girls' sports
----------
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 8:46 AM
To: Jane Binkerd <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com>
Cc: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>, john.r.harris@verizon.net <john.r.harris@verizon.net>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 8:46 AM
To: Jane Binkerd <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com>
Cc: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>, john.r.harris@verizon.net <john.r.harris@verizon.net>
Take note that Jane is promoting a white nationalist hate group via our list.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/alliance-defending-freedom
Even the ADL classifies David & Jane's rhetoric as hate speechhttps://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/alliance-defending-freedom
https://www.adl.org/resources/report/tracking-anti-transgender-rhetoric-online-offline-and-our-legislative-chambers
----------
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 10:04 AM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 10:04 AM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
A member has accused two other members of using "hate speech" without giving specifics. The group will need specifics to take up such complaints. False or reckless claims about "hate speech" are themselves subject to complaint.
The ADL site seems to characterize the term "biological males" as "anti-transgender rhetoric." BMDC would need to take that up for discussion. Is any reference to biological sex now to be deemed "hate speech"? Because sex is a biological thing. Such discussion belongs on the BMDC-Discuss list and I will post some comments now there.
What BMDC needs, and could agree on Sunday, is a collective decision re-confirming democratic procedure, in that members are free to voice their political opinions, gender identities, and other expressions protected by the First Amendment, without penalty or harassment. The context is agreement with the declared action goals of BMDC.
David
----------
From: Heidi Olson <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 10:16 AM
To: DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>, dmkeil@gmail.com <dmkeil@gmail.com>
From: Heidi Olson <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 10:16 AM
To: DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>, dmkeil@gmail.com <dmkeil@gmail.com>
Yes! These days everything is being labeled anti trans. For God's sake someone called my friends who have a transgender son anti trans in the work list for not allowing their child to play high school football with cis males due to risk of injury. Cis women are feeling attacked. Now if we say breastfeeding we are anti trans we must say chest feeding, if we say biological we are anti trans we must say cis. I want to be respectful and use the terms that others are comfortable with. In NO way do I agree with the statement that "trans women will never be real women" that was hurtful and mean. Trans women are women but they are not cis women aka biological women. In NO way do I agree with statements that any of our members are white nationalist or promoting white nationalists. Everyone needs to stop this insanity.
From: bmdc-request@lists.riseup.net <bmdc-request@lists.riseup.net> on behalf of DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2023 10:03 AM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2023 10:03 AM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
----------
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 10:53 AM
To: <queenritamonkey@gmail.com>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 10:53 AM
To: <queenritamonkey@gmail.com>
--
Lita Xú Líng KelleyPhotographer | Photojournalist Lita Xú Líng Kelley Photography Pronouns: She / They | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
----------
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 11:08 PM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 11:08 PM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
I would like to modify my previous comments by adding to them a separate angle. I am aware that we have a toxic conflict in which there are members on polarized "sides", and members on each side are saying things that are accurate and other things that are inaccurate. I do appreciate the contributions of Lita and of Jane.
I would like to say that depending on definitions, both statements are true: "Transwomen are women" and "Transwomen are male."
Using the first definition of sex, the second assertion is true. But using the definition of "women" as persons with womanly behavior and identity, the first assertion is true too. For example, "women's attire" refers not to the attire of persons with female reproductive anatomy, but of persons who identify as women. Obviously both definitions apply, even though they are different.
Based on the above, I think that we can ask Jane to cool the anger and Lita to reconsider the need to remove members from BMDC for their ideas.
If there is debate on sex and gender, I hope that we can move it to the BMDC-Discuss list as John has urged and as our vote to create that list seems to mandate.
Acknowledging that there are two legitimate definitions of each of the words, "woman" and "man," would be one way for us to have a successful meeting Sunday.
David
----------
From: Padma Balasubramanian <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 11:26 PM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: Padma Balasubramanian <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 11:26 PM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
"Tranwomen are women and Transwomen are male- David you are
saying both are true?
This is a ridiculous statement and statements like this have hurt our transwomen in this group enormously. The have said they are women and end of story. I for one am in total solidarity with all women except the ones who are part of the parasitic ruling class.
You need to stop this immediately.
If that is your personal opinion you can keep it but this is very destructive. You have to listen to our transgender comrades in BMDC and others in the community and ask them for their opinion on this, period.
As a long standing supporter of BMDC I am saying that these discussions need to end and we have to respect our transwomen and transmen and take note of their concerns seriously. The atmosphere in the country is terrible for all minorities and poor. There is a lot of work that needs to be done
BMDC needs to be focusing on all the wonderful things that it has been part of for several years ie working class struggles, anti imperialist struggles, attacks against immigrants, people in the LBBTQ community, ending the terrible sanctions in Venezuela, Cuba atc
Thanks
‐‐-----------------------------------
I would like to modify my previous comments by adding to them a separate angle. I am aware that we have a toxic conflict in which there are members on polarized "sides", and members on each side are saying things that are accurate and other things that are inaccurate. I do appreciate the contributions of Lita and of Jane.
I would like to say that depending on definitions, both statements are true: "Transwomen are women" and "Transwomen are male."
Using the first definition of sex, the second assertion is true. But using the definition of "women" as persons with womanly behavior and identity, the first assertion is true too. For example, "women's attire" refers not to the attire of persons with female reproductive anatomy, but of persons who identify as women. Obviously both definitions apply, even though they are different.
Based on the above, I think that we can ask Jane to cool the anger and Lita to reconsider the need to remove members from BMDC for their ideas.
If there is debate on sex and gender, I hope that we can move it to the BMDC-Discuss list as John has urged and as our vote to create that list seems to mandate.
Acknowledging that there are two legitimate definitions of each of the words, "woman" and "man," would be one way for us to have a successful meeting Sunday.
David
----------
From: Joe <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 11:49 PM
To: Padma Balasubramanian <padma_balasubramanian@yahoo.com>
Cc: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: Joe <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 11:49 PM
To: Padma Balasubramanian <padma_balasubramanian@yahoo.com>
Cc: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Lita, Sports is not Hate speech! The facts are the facts! Whose heart and lungs are bigger? Who has larger muscles! Who are trained to be able to win an athletic event? Trans have the advantage in all 3 categories. Why do you carry the conversation to Hate speech? Stick with the subject of Sports! That is the discussion here! Writing about any other subject is inappropriate here! Thank you! Joe K
----------
From: Padma Balasubramanian <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 11:55 PM
To: <jkdixie@gmail.com>, Joe" (via bmdc Mailing List) <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Cc: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: Padma Balasubramanian <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 11:55 PM
To: <jkdixie@gmail.com>, Joe" (via bmdc Mailing List) <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Cc: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
This is a non issue ie sports
There are important matters affecting our trans brothers and sisters ie the hate against them in the society and attacks against them. And by making sports into a big issue it is causing a lot of distress .
There is absolutely no need to waste any more time on this.
This is a complete distraction.
On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 10:49 PM, Joe" (via bmdc Mailing List)<bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
----------
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 10:06 AM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 10:06 AM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
I retract my suggestion relating to the words "women" and "male" and urge that we move that discussion entirely to the BMDC-Discuss list, closing this BMDC-Work thread. Obviously we stand with trans people against the general discrimination and demonization they are subjected to.
BMDC has no position on the word "women," women's sports, or medical transitioning of children, and need not take a position. The left has shattered for centuries over words and over efforts by some to impose their positions on others. It continues to shatter and has virtually no ability to mobilize or offer leadership to anybody.
Two members have pressed the issue from opposite directions, somewhat aggressively, on this Work list. There is disruptive comment, intended to split or purge the group, with some members objecting to the disruption, but not enough objecting to prevent it. Multiple members on each side of this divisive issue have already announced their departures from the group.
If we were to agree on Sunday that members disagree about this topic and are free to have their opinions, then that would clear the air allowing us to continue our anti-racist, anti-imperialist, pro-immigrant work. Otherwise, we are likely to remain mostly paralyzed and fading as an action-organizing group.
David Keil
----------
From: Padma Balasubramanian <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 10:19 AM
To: DAVID KEIL" (via bmdc Mailing List) <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: Padma Balasubramanian <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 10:19 AM
To: DAVID KEIL" (via bmdc Mailing List) <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Thank you
On Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 9:06 AM, DAVID KEIL" (via bmdc Mailing List)<bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
----------
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 10:51 AM
To: <queenritamonkey@gmail.com>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 10:51 AM
To: <queenritamonkey@gmail.com>
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [bmdc-wg] Protecting women and girls' sports
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [bmdc-wg] Protecting women and girls' sports
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
----------
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 4:17 PM
To: <queenritamonkey@gmail.com>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2023 at 4:17 PM
To: <queenritamonkey@gmail.com>
----------
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 7:55 PM
To: <xulingkelley.bmdcantitrans@blogger.com>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 7:55 PM
To: <xulingkelley.bmdcantitrans@blogger.com>
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Jane Binkerd <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 11:54 AM
Subject: [bmdc-wg] Protecting women and girls' sports
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: Jane Binkerd <jmbinkerd@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jun 9, 2023 at 11:54 AM
Subject: [bmdc-wg] Protecting women and girls' sports
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>