Fwd: [bmdc-wg] Regarding conduct at meetings and on the worklist
Subject: Re: [bmdc-wg] Regarding conduct at meetings and on the worklist
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David....are you kidding me right now? You've got some nerve. I don't even know where to start with all this foolishness....
Okay first of all, Lita has every right to express her opinion. So what if her feedback on the action wasn't fluffy and sweet enough? So what if she said it was a shit show? Guess what? None of those are a personal, racist, sexist or bigoted attack by any means. It's a phrase she used that Jane did not agree with. Instead of responding in a logical and appropriate manner, she made the outburst that she did. AND THEN PROCEEDED TO USE THE EMAIL LIST TO SAY A WHOLE BUNCH OF DIRESPECTFUL AND TRANSPHOBIC THINGS TOWARDS LITA! You seemed to have glazed over that part when you said that "the outburst was followed by a written apology". No the outburst was followed by more hurtful and disrespectful things BEFORE an apology was made. Jane not being able to respond to the wording Lita used in a reasonable and appropriate manner is entirely her own fault.
Secondly, a witch hunt? You call holding Jane accountable a witch hunt? Because her name was mentioned? As if she didn't draw attention to herself with the comments she made on the email? You call it a witch hunt because after she made herself, her comments and her outburst well known by using the email list the way she did, and are now accusing BMDC of being misogynistic? We held a meeting to discuss allowing her to remain on the team. Some wanted her out, some didn't. We discussed this as a group as we absolutely should have. Did the meeting go on for an extended period of time? Yes(as they all do). Could the discussion have been shorter? Sure. But the most important thing is that we talked this out as a group and came to the general consensus that we will keep her in the group and will be moving forward once proper accountability has been taken. This is not something you just wrap up in a couple of minutes and then wash your hands of, not with the outburst/written comments that were made. I do remember YOU prolonging the meeting by defending Jane and complaining about not just dropping everything and moving on. There have also been a number of times when BMDC has logically and reasonably agreed to something as a group, only to have you throw your 2 cents in and argue against. Just for the sake of. Thus prolonging and dragging meetings on. You've done this many times. Now you have a problem with it because an essential discussion went on longer than you wanted? Please.
What also really infuriates me is the fact that you in your statement just made comments that were transphobic and anti-trans:
"This was at a meeting where no member was present who had been born and socialized female; I have called it an "all-male" meeting."
Lita was part of that meeting and Lita identifies as female, so you calling it an "all-male" meeting and saying no female was present is incredibly transphobic which is an act that is typical on the right. You're gonna make those transphobic remarks, and then accuse BMDC of being misogynistic and engaging in a witch hunt? You've got a lot of nerve. How dare you. Funny how after all that, you say you agree with BMDCs stance on recognizing gender identities. Clearly that was a lie and clearly you weren't paying attention during those "two and a half hours" that you said the meeting went on for. Maybe you should've spent less time complaining and more time listening...
The statement John made was perfect. It was sound and made it very clear that we respect gender identities and will not tolerate transphobia. Giving us the opportunity as a group to move forward and focus on other tasks. Yet here you are defending someone who was clearly in the wrong, making transphobic remarks, making bogus accusations towards BMDC, complaining about the "inability to proceed in a normal manner", while also prolonging this issue further. Your statement was completely and utterly disrespectful, illogical, nonsensical, inaccurate, transphobic, and just plain dumb and ignorant. Shame on you David. Shame on you. Way to express the exact same disrespectful and transphobic mindset that started this entire issue in the first place. Bravo! Why don't you go in time-out or take a nap....
------------------------
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 1:09 PM
To: bmdc@lists.riseup.net <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 1:09 PM
To: bmdc@lists.riseup.net <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
An outburst by a member at the February 19 BMDC meeting was triggered by another member's use of the phrase "shit show" to describe a public action that the member enthusiastically supported. The outburst was followed by her written apology on the list. The apology was not sufficient for some members, with the partial result that John details below.
After the unfortunate action taken in spite of the apology, an hour of additional discussion followed at the meeting, indicating that some members wanted to purge BMDC politically after strongly chastising a member. Thus virtually the entire meeting Feb. 26, two and a half hours, was devoted to the matter. The organizing for a May Day action is being disrupted.
This was at a meeting at which no member was present who had been born and socialized female; I have called it an "all-male" meeting. I would call the refusal to accept the woman member's apology an act of misogyny typical on the left.
By naming the female offender on the list, the message below seems to incite shunning of her for transphobia, "denial of a member's gender identity." This seems to go along with an effort to accuse a respected community spiritual institution on similar grounds, i.e., being associated with someone accused of transphobia. The actual political dispute at the Feb. 19 BMDC meeting was about the "Rage Against the War Machine" action in DC, not about gender or trans rights.
In a witch hunt, neither apologies nor innocence of wrongdoing are enough. In a witch hunt, defending a woman accused of witchcraft, or denying that witchcraft exists, are the greatest crimes of witchcraft.
I agree with the phrase below stating that BMDC "consider[s] the gender identity of anyone in BMDC to be a settled question." This means that everyone chooses their gender identity and expression. It does not mean, however, that everyone chooses their sex, because sex is a biological reality finalized at birth. Whereas to get along with each other, we should not be focusing on each other's sexes or genders, or referring to each other in unwelcome ways, it is also the right of every person to use the definitions of "sex" as a biological trait, "woman" as an adult human female, and "man" as an adult human male. It is the right of women, as the oppressed sex, to create female spaces, including in sports, and everyone's right to defend age-of-consent laws that protect children in matters of life-changing medication and surgery.
By its way of handling this case, BMDC has indicated an inability to proceed in a normal manner after outbursts and conflicts, and an inclination toward witch-hunting women. In my opinion, the success of the May Day action will depend on BMDC's ability to put this matter behind us, welcoming diversity of opinion, and at long last accepting rather than rejecting the apology offered about two weeks ago.
David Keil
On Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 12:07 AM john.r.harris <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
Hi Folks,---Last Sunday BMDC voted to adopt the following statement regarding recent conduct at a meeting and on the worklist:We are discussing the issue of an outburst at our last meeting and subsequent posts on our work list. At the meeting last Sunday, Lita described the mobilization in DC on February 19 as a "shit show". This led to an outburst by Jane saying: "Fuck you bitch!" and she then immediately left the meeting. Disagreements within BMDC should not be addressed in this manner. We want to have an atmosphere in our meetings where we respect the right of everyone to have their own opinions. That disagreements be discussed in a civil manner free of outbursts and expletives. We learn nothing about the facts and issues under dispute when someone resorts to uncivil outbursts. We are opposed to this kind of behavior.As far as the list serve goes, Jane proceeded on Monday to send an email to the work list stating her opinion in the dispute and attacking Lita in an offensive and disrespectful manner, and even worse, denying her gender identity. Trans folks are an oppressed social layer in this oppressive imperialist nation who are fighting back through a wide social campaign demanding to be treated equally and asserting rights that should be protected by the constitution. However, discrimination exists and all too often, acts of violence continue against our trans sisters and brothers. Trans folks are murdered at a rate disproportionately higher than the overall population. BMDC has had a longstanding position in solidarity with trans rights and members have participated in different actions supporting trans folks. Lita legitimately felt offended and disrespected and no one in BMDC supports this behavior.We are asking Jane, going forward, to cease from expletive outbursts at our meetings and to cease using the worklist to express denial of any member's gender identity. Although Jane has apologized to Lita and to BMDC we consider this necessary to make clear what our stance is. We don't want this on our worklist. We consider the gender identity of anyone in BMDC to be a settled question determined by the trans member who belongs to BMDC. We value the contributions of trans members both in recent times and in years past. We want to continue to welcome trans folks into participation in BMDC and this recent behavior cuts across that effort.
Adelante,John
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From: downie.steve <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 4:59 PM
To: <dmkeil@gmail.com>, BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Cc: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: downie.steve <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 4:59 PM
To: <dmkeil@gmail.com>, BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Cc: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
David....are you kidding me right now? You've got some nerve. I don't even know where to start with all this foolishness....
Okay first of all, Lita has every right to express her opinion. So what if her feedback on the action wasn't fluffy and sweet enough? So what if she said it was a shit show? Guess what? None of those are a personal, racist, sexist or bigoted attack by any means. It's a phrase she used that Jane did not agree with. Instead of responding in a logical and appropriate manner, she made the outburst that she did. AND THEN PROCEEDED TO USE THE EMAIL LIST TO SAY A WHOLE BUNCH OF DIRESPECTFUL AND TRANSPHOBIC THINGS TOWARDS LITA! You seemed to have glazed over that part when you said that "the outburst was followed by a written apology". No the outburst was followed by more hurtful and disrespectful things BEFORE an apology was made. Jane not being able to respond to the wording Lita used in a reasonable and appropriate manner is entirely her own fault.
Secondly, a witch hunt? You call holding Jane accountable a witch hunt? Because her name was mentioned? As if she didn't draw attention to herself with the comments she made on the email? You call it a witch hunt because after she made herself, her comments and her outburst well known by using the email list the way she did, and are now accusing BMDC of being misogynistic? We held a meeting to discuss allowing her to remain on the team. Some wanted her out, some didn't. We discussed this as a group as we absolutely should have. Did the meeting go on for an extended period of time? Yes(as they all do). Could the discussion have been shorter? Sure. But the most important thing is that we talked this out as a group and came to the general consensus that we will keep her in the group and will be moving forward once proper accountability has been taken. This is not something you just wrap up in a couple of minutes and then wash your hands of, not with the outburst/written comments that were made. I do remember YOU prolonging the meeting by defending Jane and complaining about not just dropping everything and moving on. There have also been a number of times when BMDC has logically and reasonably agreed to something as a group, only to have you throw your 2 cents in and argue against. Just for the sake of. Thus prolonging and dragging meetings on. You've done this many times. Now you have a problem with it because an essential discussion went on longer than you wanted? Please.
What also really infuriates me is the fact that you in your statement just made comments that were transphobic and anti-trans:
"This was at a meeting where no member was present who had been born and socialized female; I have called it an "all-male" meeting."
Lita was part of that meeting and Lita identifies as female, so you calling it an "all-male" meeting and saying no female was present is incredibly transphobic which is an act that is typical on the right. You're gonna make those transphobic remarks, and then accuse BMDC of being misogynistic and engaging in a witch hunt? You've got a lot of nerve. How dare you. Funny how after all that, you say you agree with BMDCs stance on recognizing gender identities. Clearly that was a lie and clearly you weren't paying attention during those "two and a half hours" that you said the meeting went on for. Maybe you should've spent less time complaining and more time listening...
The statement John made was perfect. It was sound and made it very clear that we respect gender identities and will not tolerate transphobia. Giving us the opportunity as a group to move forward and focus on other tasks. Yet here you are defending someone who was clearly in the wrong, making transphobic remarks, making bogus accusations towards BMDC, complaining about the "inability to proceed in a normal manner", while also prolonging this issue further. Your statement was completely and utterly disrespectful, illogical, nonsensical, inaccurate, transphobic, and just plain dumb and ignorant. Shame on you David. Shame on you. Way to express the exact same disrespectful and transphobic mindset that started this entire issue in the first place. Bravo! Why don't you go in time-out or take a nap....
On Saturday, March 4, 2023, 01:09:52 PM EST, DAVID KEIL" (via bmdc Mailing List) <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
An outburst by a member at the February 19 BMDC meeting was triggered by another member's use of the phrase "shit show" to describe a public action that the member enthusiastically supported. The outburst was followed by her written apology on the list. The apology was not sufficient for some members, with the partial result that John details below.
After the unfortunate action taken in spite of the apology, an hour of additional discussion followed at the meeting, indicating that some members wanted to purge BMDC politically after strongly chastising a member. Thus virtually the entire meeting Feb. 26, two and a half hours, was devoted to the matter. The organizing for a May Day action is being disrupted.
This was at a meeting at which no member was present who had been born and socialized female; I have called it an "all-male" meeting. I would call the refusal to accept the woman member's apology an act of misogyny typical on the left.
By naming the female offender on the list, the message below seems to incite shunning of her for transphobia, "denial of a member's gender identity." This seems to go along with an effort to accuse a respected community spiritual institution on similar grounds, i.e., being associated with someone accused of transphobia. The actual political dispute at the Feb. 19 BMDC meeting was about the "Rage Against the War Machine" action in DC, not about gender or trans rights.
In a witch hunt, neither apologies nor innocence of wrongdoing are enough. In a witch hunt, defending a woman accused of witchcraft, or denying that witchcraft exists, are the greatest crimes of witchcraft.
I agree with the phrase below stating that BMDC "consider[s] the gender identity of anyone in BMDC to be a settled question." This means that everyone chooses their gender identity and expression. It does not mean, however, that everyone chooses their sex, because sex is a biological reality finalized at birth. Whereas to get along with each other, we should not be focusing on each other's sexes or genders, or referring to each other in unwelcome ways, it is also the right of every person to use the definitions of "sex" as a biological trait, "woman" as an adult human female, and "man" as an adult human male. It is the right of women, as the oppressed sex, to create female spaces, including in sports, and everyone's right to defend age-of-consent laws that protect children in matters of life-changing medication and surgery.
By its way of handling this case, BMDC has indicated an inability to proceed in a normal manner after outbursts and conflicts, and an inclination toward witch-hunting women. In my opinion, the success of the May Day action will depend on BMDC's ability to put this matter behind us, welcoming diversity of opinion, and at long last accepting rather than rejecting the apology offered about two weeks ago.
David Keil
On Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 12:07 AM john.r.harris <bmdc@lists.riseup.net> wrote:
Hi Folks,---Last Sunday BMDC voted to adopt the following statement regarding recent conduct at a meeting and on the worklist:We are discussing the issueof an outburst at our last meeting and subsequent posts on our work list. At themeeting last Sunday, Lita described the mobilization in DC on February 19 as a "shitshow". This led to an outburst by Jane saying: "Fuck you bitch!" and she then immediatelyleft the meeting. Disagreements within BMDC should not be addressed in thismanner. We want to have an atmosphere in our meetings where we respect theright of everyone to have their own opinions. That disagreements be discussedin a civil manner free of outbursts and expletives. We learn nothing about thefacts and issues under dispute when someone resorts to uncivil outbursts. Weare opposed to this kind of behavior.As far as the list servegoes, Jane proceeded on Monday to send an email to the work list stating heropinion in the dispute and attacking Lita in an offensive and disrespectfulmanner, and even worse, denying her gender identity. Trans folks are anoppressed social layer in this oppressive imperialist nation who are fightingback through a wide social campaign demanding to be treated equally andasserting rights that should be protected by the constitution. However,discrimination exists and all too often, acts of violence continue against ourtrans sisters and brothers. Trans folks are murdered at a rate disproportionatelyhigher than the overall population. BMDC has had a longstanding position insolidarity with trans rights and members have participated in different actionssupporting trans folks. Lita legitimately felt offended and disrespected and no one in BMDC supports this behavior.We are asking Jane, goingforward, to cease from expletive outbursts at our meetings and to cease usingthe worklist to express denial of any member's gender identity. Although Janehas apologized to Lita and to BMDC we consider this necessary to make clearwhat our stance is. We don't want this on our worklist. We consider the genderidentity of anyone in BMDC to be a settled question determined by the transmember who belongs to BMDC. We value the contributions of trans members both inrecent times and in years past. We want to continue to welcome trans folks intoparticipation in BMDC and this recent behavior cuts across that effort.Adelante,John
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From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 5:41 PM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: DAVID KEIL <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 5:41 PM
To: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
This is to acknowledge Stevie's comments. I agree with him that the discussion last Sunday was in order and warranted.
What was not in order, however, was a motion to summarily censure a member by name. I voted "yes" on that, regrettably, with the goal of heading off a summary expulsion motion. I expressed regret for my vote later in the meeting. Clearly the motion adopted did not resolve the matter in any way. Accordingly, Stevie expresses a need for "proper accountability," as if an apology plus censure are not sufficient.
When a member brings a formal complaint against another member, a fair process is required: the right to hear and reply to charges, a fair investigation of facts, and a fair vote. Apologies should be taken into consideration. Witch hunts sweep aside all that. The motion voted on last Sunday, with an egregious sex imbalance in voting, should be rescinded.
Maybe others would like to comment.
David Keil
What was not in order, however, was a motion to summarily censure a member by name. I voted "yes" on that, regrettably, with the goal of heading off a summary expulsion motion. I expressed regret for my vote later in the meeting. Clearly the motion adopted did not resolve the matter in any way. Accordingly, Stevie expresses a need for "proper accountability," as if an apology plus censure are not sufficient.
When a member brings a formal complaint against another member, a fair process is required: the right to hear and reply to charges, a fair investigation of facts, and a fair vote. Apologies should be taken into consideration. Witch hunts sweep aside all that. The motion voted on last Sunday, with an egregious sex imbalance in voting, should be rescinded.
Maybe others would like to comment.
David Keil
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From: Colin j <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 6:44 PM
To: <dmkeil@gmail.com>
Cc: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
From: Colin j <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 6:44 PM
To: <dmkeil@gmail.com>
Cc: BMDC Working Group <bmdc@lists.riseup.net>
I second Stevie. I've been a member on this list since 2012 and attended meetings prolly up to 2016. A lot of people have left due to different types of bigotry.
Censuring them is definitely in order, and asking to refrain from outburst and transphobia on this list is just. In their hate filled email, Jane withdrew her membership.
David, you're ignorant of what you don't know.
-Colin
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From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 7:37 PM
To: <xulingkelley.bmdcantitrans@blogger.com>
From: Lita Xú Líng Kelley <xulingkelley@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 7:37 PM
To: <xulingkelley.bmdcantitrans@blogger.com>